(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #0)
> 7: Insert manual break > page break / Style: default style / "Change page
> number": 1

Sorry, but the meaning of the step "change page number": 1 is not lear to me. What shall I do?

Click Insert->Manual Break 
This brings up menu "Insert Break"
Select Type: "Page break"
Select Style: "Default Style"
Check checkbox "Change Page Number"
Set "Page number" to "1" (Default)

Seeing that the first page in the document is a right-hand page, Writer will insert a blank page so that the new page after the page break also becomes a right-hand page.
This is good in normal books, but there are other document types where this assumption is incorrect. It should be possible to avoid these blank pages being inserted.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #2)
> This is good in normal books, but there are other document types where this
> assumption is incorrect. It should be possible to avoid these blank pages
> being inserted.

Buit this is the book mode. If you create other document types you should use the normal view. I don't think that there are books, where you find an odd page number on the left side.

The problem is that when writing the document with two pages visible at the same time, using book mode is the only way to get writer to display the document with left- and right-hand pages correctly positioned on the screen. Writer acheives this by putting the first page in the document to the right and leaving an empty space to the left of it.
This means that all other viewing modes will put what in print will become the right-hand page to the left and the left hand page of the next page pair to the right. This makes formatting any document that will be printed in book-form (as in a pile of paper connected on one side), but which does not follow the convention of page nr. 1 to the right, very difficult.

As explained earlier: Our technical documentation uses a more complex page numbering consisting of CHAPTER.SUBCHAPTER-PAGENUMBER. Each new SUBCHAPTER starts with PAGENUMBER = 1. 

This must be so, so that inserting a new page somewhere in the middle of document will not result in all further pages of the document having to be replaced only because all page numbers must increase by 1. 

Since sunbhapters are only a few pages long, this means that, with the current situation, there will be very many blank pages inserted. 


Our current work-around is not to use "book mode", to view two pages at a time, and to add an empty page in front of the document. This empty page must then be deleted every time we wish to print the document, and this carries the risk of screwing up the formatting of the whole document.

The basic problem here is one of assuming that EVERYBODY that writes a document that will be printed and bound into book form will ALWAYS want a page No. 1 to be a right-hand page. I am trying to convey the information that this assumption is incorrect for some types of documents.

I have found some very old threads lamenting over this problem, but have not been able to find an open bug/enhancement-report

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #4)

> The basic problem here is one of assuming that EVERYBODY that writes a
> document that will be printed and bound into book form will ALWAYS want a
> page No. 1 to be a right-hand page.

So if you have a book with chapter-subchapter-pagenumber, it is common, that pagenumber 1 is on the left?

In fact, the setting is more general: if you insert a page break that starts with an uneven page number, a blank page is added on the left.

Chances are 50-50. In our documentation, we do not AIM to have a page No. 1 being on the left, it is the result of the length of the last sub-chapter.

An alternate solution would be to have the option of putting the first page of the document to the right even if the document is not viewed in "book mode" This could be a simple check-box, and it would leave the auto-insertion of blank pages alone.

Stuart, Cor, what do you think?

Hi A.Holtsmark,

Thanks for bringing up the issue here.
What is the effect of Tools > Options > Writer > Printing ... "Print automatically inserted blank pages" for your case?

It does not change the situation on the screen (in book mode) but leaves out the blank pages in printing, so ..?

Cor

"What is the effect of Tools > Options > Writer > Printing ... "Print automatically inserted blank pages" for your case?"

-This setting is of little relevance.
It does not affect the way the document reacts to viewing settings, and it changes nothing to the pdf export. I could not try printing right now, but I assume that the setting will work as published there.

My problem is one of editing, not printing.
I need to edit the document with left- and right-hand pages displayed properly next to each other on the screen (for example, left page often contains a screenshot, while the right-hand page explains the contents of the screenshot).

In all other viewing modes but "book mode", writer swaps left with right (due displaying the first page on the left hand side), and in "book mode" I get all the auto-generated blank pages pushed in whenever the numbering starts at 1 for what should be a left-hand page.

The only way to work around this is to add an empty page in front of page 1, view it in not "book mode", and delete this page before printing or exporting to pdf. 
Doing this risks destroying the formatting throughout the document when the page is removed (although it should not).

Created attachment 142121 [details]
Test document which should be possible to view with pages marked "left" to the left and pages marked "right" to the right.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #9)
> "What is the effect of Tools > Options > Writer > Printing ... "Print
> automatically inserted blank pages" for your case?"
> 
> -This setting is of little relevance.
> It does not affect the way the document reacts to viewing settings, and it

correct, that is what I wrote.

> changes nothing to the pdf export. 

There is the same option in PDF export.

> My problem is one of editing, not printing.

You also wrote that it is a problem that in published documents, too many pages needs to be replaced because of this option influencing page numbering..
So that is confusing.

But the request is to have an option to not have the automatic inserted blank pages, with as consequence that in a printed book at one moment right pages have odd numbers, and at another position even numbers?

(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #11)
> (In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #9)
> > "What is the effect of Tools > Options > Writer > Printing ... "Print
> > automatically inserted blank pages" for your case?"

Hi Cor,
I ran the test on the test-document that I posted albove.
When editing in "Book mode", un-checking "Print automatically inserted blank pages" results in blank pages not being printed. This remains irrelevant since I can not create the document in a sensible fashion. 

> > 
> > -This setting is of little relevance.
> > It does not affect the way the document reacts to viewing settings, and it
> 
> correct, that is what I wrote.
> 
> > changes nothing to the pdf export. 
> 
> There is the same option in PDF export.
I looked, but could not find such a setting. This does not imply that this setting does not exist. However, this too is irrelevant to my problem.



> > My problem is one of editing, not printing.
> 
> You also wrote that it is a problem that in published documents, too many
> pages needs to be replaced because of this option influencing page
> numbering..
> So that is confusing.

The problem that I have is that I would end up with a document that has 50% to 100% more pages than necessary due to auto-inserted blank pages. As thing stand now, there is already too little space in the portable ring-binder that should hold the document. Unchecking the printing option reduces the number of printed pages, but it does not let me view the document properly while editing.

> But the request is to have an option to not have the automatic inserted
> blank pages, with as consequence that in a printed book at one moment right
> pages have odd numbers, and at another position even numbers?

The basic issue is that to view the document correctly with left hand page to the left and right hand page to the right, writer must put the first page to the right. Writer only does this in "book mode", but then it inserts blank pages all through the document. The issue can be solved in two ways:
1: make it possible to suppress the auto-insertion of blank pages in book mode.
2: make it possible to position the first page to the right outside of book mode. 
Both solutions could be selected over a simple checkbox in the appropriate menu. 
Please play around with the document I uploaded and see if you can get it to view correctly. I can only acheive this be de-selecting book-mode and adding a blank page in front of the first page. 

I am sorry about needing so much text to explain the problem, but it was not easy to find and understand the underlying issue, and it is not an obvious bug.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #0)
> Description:
> When working in "book mode" (edit>view>zoom>"zoom and view layout"), libre
> office writer will insert blank pages to make page No. 1 a right-hand page.
> Documentation like operational manuals often have complex page numbering
> like "CHAPTER.SUBCHAPTER-PAGENUMBER", where page number is reset to 1 with
> every new sub-chapter (This allows for easy insertion or removal of pages
> during the lifetime of the product without affecting the page numbering of
> the whole document). In this type of document, having auto-inserted blank
> pages every 4 or 5 pages overly inflates the document.

If you do not want the automatic "odd pages right", you have to use different settings in the page styles. The settings "right and left" and "mirrored" have the automatic "odd pages right". But you can set "only left" and "only right". These put the content left and right respectively regardless of the page number.
You will likely need a first page style (without footer), a left page style and a right page style. To get an automatic change between right and left, you set "Next style" reciprocally.

Shortcoming of such left-right-alternating is, that when inserting a page break you need to know whether the new page will be a right or left one to choose the correct style in the dialog. And you will have to change page breaks, if you later on notice, that you have to add a further page in between.

For me this is a "works for me".

Thank you for this informative post.
I will give it a try later today, but it sounds like it might work.

HOWEVER, it will probably not work well in my very specific case.
I ported the whole document from Word to Writer due to the complex page numbering scheme I needed to use.
-I have page styles for chapter levels 1 to 3. This results in 3 page styles
-For each of these, I have page styles for whether this page contains information that is authority approved or not, making it 6 styles.
-Then we had to change from national to European certification authority, making it 12 styles.
-Finally, for each time the document is edited, there is a new date in the footer (a part of the page change tracking), adding another set of 12 styles each time. So far, we have managed to get away with 4 edits. This yields 48 page styles within the document. Now, If I must split each style into a left-hand and a right-hand style, I will have to manage 96 page styles within this single document. I fear that the cure will be worse than the disease.

Therefore: While I accept that the solution mentioned above may be a/the correct solution to this issue, I fear that unless one of the two fixes I mentioned above is implemented, I will be stuck with my current workaround.

PS: MS Word choked completely on this numbering scheme. Before porting I had to open the Word document in Writer and re-save as .doc in order to maker Word open the document without choking. It is definitely not a common type of document.

For adapting content in the header/footer please have a look at the various Fields. For you especially those, which input content from the standard and from the user fields of the document properties, might be of interest. Please consult the Writer Guide and ask on mailing list or forum in case you need help with all these advanced features of LibreOffice.

*** Bug 128626 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

- Setting to Unconfirmed, because QA-admin closed for insufficient.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #9)
> My problem is one of editing, not printing.
 - Modified summary in attempt to highlight the OP
 - did not change "page No. 1", but actually the behavior happens any time a page number is reset, where the value of current page number is odd and the value of the next page number is also odd.

(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #13)

> If you do not want the automatic "odd pages right", you have to use
> different settings in the page styles. The settings "right and left" and
> "mirrored" have the automatic "odd pages right". But you can set "only left"
> and "only right". These put the content left and right respectively
> regardless of the page number.
> You will likely need a first page style (without footer), a left page style
> and a right page style. To get an automatic change between right and left,
> you set "Next style" reciprocally.


I just tried to do this
1. In a new document change page style to rigth
2. Insert manual page break with page style left and page number 1

Result: Information "Page numbers conot be applied to the current page. Even numbers can be used on left pages and odd numbers on right pages." pops up. So there is no way to avoid the odd pages right rule

So I want to propose the following improvement: If someone inserts page break and restarts numbering there will pop ub an information like "Odd pages are always right pages. Writer will insert a hidden page automatically if necssary"

And (independend of an improvement and as written in comment 5 of bug 126284) we need a documentation of that issue.

(In reply to Dieter from comment #20)
> pop ub an information like "Odd pages are always right pages. Writer will 
> insert a hidden page automatically if necssary"

Those info boxes break the workflow and are annoying. We should rather block the ability to use even/odd numbers depending on the page style. And perhaps use a static text about the blank pages in the dialog.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #21)
> (In reply to Dieter from comment #20)
> > pop ub an information like "Odd pages are always right pages. Writer will 
> > insert a hidden page automatically if necssary"
> 
> Those info boxes break the workflow and are annoying. We should rather block
For this specific case, that doesn't happen every 5 minutes either, it is extremely useful and I suggest we appreciate the thoughtful and precise study and comments of the various members in this report.
And possibly add a "[] do not show this message again" to the box.

Doesn't https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/da4f9ff1cfeeeb4f04bb943e94db86887b5c9f58 solve this?

Needinfo because of Mike's comment 23

(In reply to Dieter from comment #20)
> So I want to propose the following improvement: If someone inserts page
> break and restarts numbering there will pop ub an information like "Odd
> pages are always right pages. Writer will insert a hidden page automatically
> if necssary"
> 
> And (independend of an improvement and as written in comment 5 of bug
> 126284) we need a documentation of that issue.

Thank you for picking up on the old, but (to me) still relevant bug.
However, please note that adding pop up information boxes will not solve the underlying problem of writer insisting on all No. 1 pages being right-hand pages. In my opinion this is an un-needed limitation of the program, which limits the usefulness of what is otherwise an excellent application.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #25)
> However, please note that adding pop up information boxes will not solve the
> underlying problem of writer...

Could you please test with a nightly build? https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/current.html

LibreOffice 7 suppresses empty pages as start of document and allows to start a document with page number 0. Please test it.

Created attachment 161515 [details]
Screenshots of described behaviour

Created attachment 161516 [details]
Screenshots of described behaviour

Created attachment 161517 [details]
Screenshots of described behaviour

Tried working with one of the relevant documents in 7.0
In Book mode, the first page is correctly positioned on the right-hand side of the screen (see screenshot No.1)
However, Writer still inserted a blank page whenever the page numbering is reset to 1 on what is supposed to be a left-hand page (see schreenshot No. 2).

With "book mode" un-checked, writer firmly dumps the furst page on the left-hand side of the screen, even if the page is formatted as a right-hand page (see screenshot No. 3)

Close, but no banana :/

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #32)
> However, Writer still inserted a blank page whenever the page numbering is
> reset to 1 on what is supposed to be a left-hand page (see schreenshot No.
> 2).

I suggest to create a new ticket for remaining bugs and close this enhancement request.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #34)
> I suggest to create a new ticket for remaining bugs and close this
> enhancement request.

Why should a new ticket be created when the original bug / enhancement still remains >in full<?
7.0 releves some other issues, but not the issue reported in this ticket.

The basic issue is that when viewing a document in book mode, the first page will be correctly be displayed on the right-hand side, but all subsequent page numbering resets to one will force the insertion of blank pages in order to push these pages to the right. When ot using book mode, no blank pages are inserted, but the first page is displayed on the left-hand side, making what you see on the screen not match up with the printed product.

This problem has existed since well before this ticket was created, and it still remains with no improvement in sight. 
Two solutions have been suggested: 
1: Make it possible to suppress the automatic insertion of blank pages when viewing in book form
2: Make it possible to move the first page to the right-hand side when viewing with "book mode" unchecked.
Neither have been implemented.

(In reply to A.Holtsmark from comment #35)
> Why should a new ticket be created when the original bug / enhancement still
> remains >in full<?

Because this bug report is now a little book. Nobody will read everything. So for me it's a good advice to open a new clean report.

*** Bug 145072 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

This bug description focuses on a so-called "book mode", but the problem is by no means limited to this IMHO rather special case. Even a simple change of the numbering of the (first) page(s) leads to an incorrect page count, as described in bug report 145072 (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=145072). There you will also find more details and a document showing the problem.

There are multiple related problems here around automatically inserted pages.

First one is described here in the description, and is about Book View *specifically*. It is not possible to avoid insertion of blanks in edit mode.

The same is true about pages indicator in the status bar. It will always report the total pages count including the auto-inserted pages.

Then there's a File->Print Preview, which does not *automatically update* on changing "[ ] Print automatically inserted blank pages" setting (in either Print dialog, or in Options->Writer->Print).

And then the problem in bug 145072, which is about Pages field, displaying statistics taking those automatic pages into account.

And then the function mentioned above: "Print automatically inserted blank pages" - which for now is only implemented as printing option, that is not intended to change document layout, but as a way to automatically suppress printing of some pages without needing to enter pages into Print dialog (so LO still considers the left/right pages attached to odd/even page numbers).

So the feature that is *needed* by multiple users is to *detach* the odd/even from left/right; i.e., a *layout* mode, rather than "custom print" mode. In that mode, there would be truly *no* auto-inserted pages based on odd/even number. Only then it would be possible to resolve the actual problem, and get rid of band-aid custom print option.

There should at least be a document level option to toggle whether page 1 is internally forced to be on the front of a sheet. I would prefer to be able to explicitly define the use of a right page through the styles.

I've stumbled upon this while in the middle of a heated discussion of the problematic nature of the "Right Page" and "Left Page" style.

I'm wondering whether this should also be marked as blocking RTL-CTL.

Created attachment 193877 [details]
Revised document using paragraph styles to insert left/right page breaks

Would this revised document help to do what you need? Headings are used to insert page breaks using either an only left page or an only right page style based on the heading that is used.

(In reply to David from comment #43)
> Would this revised document help to do what you need? Headings are used to
> insert page breaks using either an only left page or an only right page
> style based on the heading that is used.

No, headers and extra-page-breaks are not relevant to this issue. This document as well has a blank page inserted before the first page, which is a left-of-spine page.